See: UPDATE 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 appended
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"Repsac3 has left a new comment on the American Power post "Reconciliation on Gay Marriage?" (only to have Donald Douglas quickly & quietly delete it from his blog for reasons that I leave for the readers to discern for themselves.)
After quoting Pam Spaulding's discussion of dishonest & disingenuous arguments some on the right offer against gay marriage, Donald says (with a straight face, as far as I can tell): "Bestiality? I've been blogging about this issue for months, and I can't recall the word ever being used by conservatives, or anything close to it."
I replied:
Um, Donald... You need to pay more attention to the things your conservative brethren are saying. There's 2 former Republican presidential candidates among the rightwing folks using that very analogy:
From Homosexual Marriage to Bestiality: "U.S. Senator Rick Santorum (R-Pa.) touched off a media firestorm in 2003, when, in an interview with an AP reporter, he suggested that allowing same-sex marriage was a strategic descent down the slippery slope toward acceptance of other perversions, such as incest, pederasty, and bestiality."
Huckabee: Gay Marriage Could Lead To Pedophilia, Bestiality, Polygamy: "Well, I don’t think that’s a radical view to say we’re going to affirm marriage. I think the radical view is to say that we’re going to change the definition of marriage so that it can mean two men, two women, a man and three women, a man and a child, a man and animal. Again, once we change the definition, the door is open to change it again. I think the radical position is to make a change in what’s been historic."
Audio: We'll compare you to anything we want. And if you call us out on it, we'll compare you to "spinners": "Rev. Jerry Falwell Jr. makes the gay/brother-loving/sheep-schtupping connection, and Matt Barber defends it/ denounces anyone who would dare be offended by it:"
California Supreme Court Legalizes Gay Marriage, Polygamy, Polyamory, Man-Boy Love, Bestiality, Necrophilia . . . (The Virtual Abbey)
Kathyrn Jean Lopez: Gay Sex Is Like Bestiality | Oliver Willis: "National Review’s Kathryn Jean Lopez has a Rick Santorum moment and says the reason a bestiality case happened in Massachusetts is because of gay marriage. Conservatism and bigotry, their status as synonyms just hasn’t been officially recognized yet. By the way, Lopez is Mitt Romney’s biggest supporter at National Review, any surprise"
Race for Governor marred by bestiality comparisons: "The contest to become Governor of Colorado has been rocked by comments from a Republican candidate comparing gay marriage to bestiality."
States to Vote on Incest and Bestiality | Up My Own Ass
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Not sure where I stand on the larger issue-- a New York Times Op-Ed - A Reconciliation on Gay Marriage , jointly authored by an opponent and a supporter of gay marriage... I suspect that the tide is turning anyway, and this compromise will be unnecessary soon, but there are folks being hurt by marriage bans right now... I'll probably wait until I get more facts & see more reaction to this compromise, for & against, before choosing a side on this...
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Originally posted by repsac3 to Donald Douglas' American Power Blog on February 22, 2009 - 6:53 PM (and deleted without comment by him a short time later. Fucking coward.)
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UPDATE 1: Pam Spaulding replies:
Pam's House Blend:: Conservative claims ignorance, says the bestiality argument hasn't been used against gays
pandagon.net - Conservative claims ignorance, says the bestiality argument hasn’t been used against gays
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UPDATE 2: Donald "clarifies" his statement, and replies to his critics (I'm sure you can guess which activity takes up the bulk of this new post):
American Power: Pam Spaulding: A Black Lesbian Who is Wickedly Dishonest
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UPDATE 3: Unable to leave well enough alone, (& now moderated, for his own pleasure--"if you want pleasure, comment on your own damned blog!"), Donald revises & extends again, still trying to sell the "They all lied about me" meme.
American Power: Amanda Marcotte: "The Actual Values of the Country"
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UPDATE 4: Still unable to accept the fact that he got his intellectual ass kicked, Donald continues his denialist ways. Someone ought to ask the professor to explain how Pam Spaulding (or I) lied about his bizarre claim about conservatives and bestiality: American Power: Picture of the Day, 3-6-09
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UPDATE 5: Hmmm... In his most recent post, American Power: "No Faggots, Dykes or Trannies," Professor Donald Douglas now says that "right wing exremists" [sic] DO make the argument about gay marriage leading to bestial marriage (which looks to me like an abrupt about face, though you're milage may vary), but that "there is no need to demonize gays for bestiality," which almost makes the professor sound reasonable.
Of course, Donald is seldom reasonable, as he proves, by continuing: "although logically if society defines marriage so that any oppressed group can make successful claims to equal protection under the matrimonial umbrella, the right to marry an animal can be seen as an extension of the agenda." By making that argument, isn't he now labeling himself a "right wing exremist"? [sic] Think about it...
1 hour ago
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15 comments:
Repsac, it's not that wingnuts don't enjoy rogering the occasional sheep, mule, etc.; it's just that the illicit quality of the relationship leads to a heightened state of arousal. If you make bestiality legal, then the thrill is gone. Surely you've heard that in wingnut circles, the men are men and the sheep are nervous.
Donald knew all that Repsac. He's cut and pasted from all of those you sited for preoccupation with animal sex.
You think the Donald misses me?
I really cannot believe this fucking amateur prick is a Professor at a state sponsored university.
Can your post secondary education system go any lower guys!?
With much love...........
That's Associate Professor, dinkledork. Let's not give the man more credentials than he's entitled to. After all, conservatives made a big flap about Obama being called a "Professor" because he had never earned a full professorship. I'm always happy to do the same for Associate Professor Donald Douglas.
And unless my mind is playing tricks on me, it's a community college. No offense to any of y'all if that's your thing, but I've taken classes at three different community colleges and DEFINITELY don't think their teachers are up to the same standard as those at a full university. The only difference between Douglas and a high school teacher is that high school teachers are generally held to higher standards and more rigid curriculum. I doubt Douglas could hack it.
Oh, and yeah, it DOES please me that when you search for "Associate Professor Donald Douglas" in Yahoo, my blog comes up first.
In his defense, it's true that Douglas is a mere associate professor at a community college, but he is pro-victory. This is in contrast to pro-defeat full professors at higher institutes of higher learning.
And, I do need to apologize for my comment at the top of the thread which found its way into an AmPow posting. I may have suggested that all wingnuts engage in bestiality. This is not true. Some are impotent. I'm sorry.
From Dr. Biodenialist's comment at "The White Flag Goes Up":
"Donald likes to pretend he's Mr. Open Debate and willing to discuss anything, yet he won't even respond to me anymore."
I think 200 plus comments where I previously delived the utlimate whipping was enough for a while, a long while.
But Dr. Biobrain's not debating here in this thread, he's resorting to rank ad hominems he so avowedly disavowed at the "Obama's Pastor" slap-down I gave earler, as mentioned above.
Now, here's this at the present thread:
"I've taken classes at three different community colleges and DEFINITELY don't think their teachers are up to the same standard as those at a full university."
Actually, note what a student said in an e-mail to me:
"It's funny that you write to me now ... [I was] just reflecting today on how your classes provided such an excellent foundation for the political science courses...taken so far. I'm actually in my second semester in Berkeley so I still have about a year and a half left until I graduate and go to law school ... Academically I think Berkeley is overrated; they hardly require critical thinking or analysis and make us rely heavily on readings and honing the skill of regurgitating them. I wish the grading was more difficult and we weren't babied so much here but I guess the demographics of these students give them more of a sense of entitlement to an A grade than the students in Long Beach."
This is just one of many e-mails and letters I've received from students over the years. I don't brag about my teaching, but students have told me wonderful things over the years, and it's the most rewarding aspect of my career. I challenge kids, push them, and expect excellence. All of you have no clue what it's really like to be in the trenches of poverty and disadvantage. Repsac's demeaned my teaching previously many times. It's really awful, and that goes for all of you and what you do here; and your condescension tells a lot about how leftists view what one would think is their natural constituency, minorities and the poor. Amazing
In any case, attack my ideas on politics and policy all you want, but you demonstrate your depravity when you make personal attacks on things in which you have no clue, nor any right, for that matter.
Oh, Donald, Donald, Donald...
No, the 239 comments at Doctor Biobrain's Obama's Pastor post neither paint you in all that good (or intelligent, or victorious) a light, or reply to newer posts or comments he's made since. Answer his posts or don't, but don't pretend that you ever did "whip," "slap," "take," or otherwise "own" him in any way, shape or form (and what IS it with you and this obsessive need to crown yourself victorious, rather than trusting blog readers to see and decide for themselves?), or that answering a person on one topic, means there's no call to ever do so again.
Now, when it comes to your teaching, I think you may have a point. While I've as little need or use for your anonymous former student testimonial e-mails as your anonymous AmPow reader testimonial e-mails, I'm glad that you do the job you do. I have a great fondness for teachers and the whole teaching profession, and think it noble work.
Repsac's demeaned my teaching previously many times.
I'm pretty sure I haven't, Donald... But then I know how thin-skinned you can be, so any mention I ever made about your profession may count as "demeaning" in your book.
I'd of course be interested in any quotes/links to these demeaning things I've said about your teaching, but I know better than to expect you to actually provide any... The vague allusion to insult is always more effective than providing anything concrete, particularly among your ideological peers.
The only thing I can ever recall saying is that I don't think the personality you show on the internet is conducive to education, and that I hope you treat your students with more understanding & civility than you do people with whom you interact in cyberspace. There are, no doubt, liberal "nihilists" among your students, and were you to speak & act toward them with the same dismissiveness and disgust you do liberal bloggers and voters online, it'd be a sad, sad thing for all concerned. While I do doubt your ability to keep those feelings under your hat, until I hear otherwise, I'll accept that I could be wrong, and that you may have more professional self-discipline than I expect.
In any case, and with all due respect, Donald, thanks for stopping by... I look forward to your next visit.
"While I do doubt your ability to keep those feelings under your hat, until I hear otherwise ..."
I don't think you have the honesty or integrity to even speak of me professionally.
Francesca, a lesbian and rights activist, and student in my class this semester, invited me to her performance tonight. I don't care what her sexual orientation is and I doubt she's a nihilist. She respects me as her professor and I respect her as my student (and she doesn't call me a "fucking coward").
If you can't even give credibility to the student testimonials I've provided, you're only demonstrating your true nihilism, as I've pointed out all along.
Donald - Your ability to embarrass yourself knows no bounds. I'm not sure why you feel it necessary to provide us with testimonials, but I assure you, they only make you look ridiculous. And not being an authoritarian, I wouldn't care if you were the highest credentialed professor at Harvard; you'd still be a joke to me. But other people continue to be amazed at how you got to be a professor at a university, so I felt it necessary to correct them and toss in a little insult for extra fun. I didn't think you'd read it, but don't regret that you did.
And once again, that was NOT ad hominem. You continue to misunderstand the very concept. And even if it were, there is nothing shameful about using an ad hominem argument and the only point of mentioning that someone's used one is to demonstrate that the specific argument they made is invalid because it was ad hominem. But the use of ad hominem arguments does not undermine any other argument the person makes, and if you suggest that it does, then you are yourself engaging in ad hominem arguments.
The whole point of the ad hominem fallacy is that it involves dismissing someone's argument based upon who the person is, rather than on the merits of the argument itself. And that's your standard method of argumentation, to insist that your opponents are radical nihilists and using that to dismiss their arguments. So not only are you a big hypocrite when it comes to your whines about ad hominem attacks, but you're a clueless one as well. But I never have any trouble destroying your arguments on their merits and have never once relied on an ad hominem attack to refute any point you've made.
And once again, I wasn't making an argument when I insulted your credentials. I was just insulting you. There's a difference. But you fail to understand that while continuing to use silly names to insult me. I'm not sure what point you think you scored by calling me "Dr. Biodenialist," but trust me, the joke is on you.
I don't think you have the honesty or integrity to even speak of me professionally.
That's alright, Donald. I don't need you to, in order to say what I think, and you're welcome to ignore it all if you value my judgement as little as I value yours.
All that stuff you say about me, from the nihilist, denialist, stalinist whatever, to your beliefs about my honesty or integrity, mean little to me, because I've seen you in action. When it comes to people with whom you ideologically disagree--or maybe just people on the internet with whom you ideologically disagree--you're not a particularly pleasant or respectful man. What else is new?
Based on the one song I was able to hear, anyway, Francesca is very talented, and I hope you do go see her perform this evening.
I don't care what her sexual orientation is and I doubt she's a nihilist. She respects me as her professor and I respect her as my student
Good for you, Donald. Now, if you would only treat more of humanity--including folks not in your classes, and perhaps even ones on the internet, or ones you'll never ever meet, with that same respect.
Why should you care what ANYONE'S sexual orientation is, or whether any gay couple wants to obtain all the legal perks we afford those who marry? Why can't you show that same respect to internet strangers who disagree with you as you do random students in your classes?
(and she doesn't call me a "fucking coward").
I assume you've never wordlessly deleted one of her comments on your blog, then, or perhaps let it slip that you believe she's a second class citizen, who can have all the marriage rights she wants... ...as long as she marries a man.
If you can't even give credibility to the student testimonials I've provided, you're only demonstrating your true nihilism, as I've pointed out all along.
Any chance you might explain how having doubts and suspicions about whether or not you'd make shit up out of whole cloth to burnish your record or make a point demonstrates nihilism, or will you just repeat the charge (or ignore the question) as usual?
Donald, if you don't see it for yourself, I don't think my explaining it to you is going to do any good, but ...
Why in the hell should anyone accept anonymously written letters quoted to them by a person who has an interest in the content saying what he claims it does, as proof of anything?
Are you telling me that if positions were reversed, you would blindly accept that I have e-mails from eight different people--who don't want to give out their names or any information about them--all agreeing with me that you are, in fact, a fucking coward for deleting my comment from your blog? Do you honestly believe that my making that claim, and perhaps "quoting" one or two of the e-mails, would prove you were a coward, or that I was right, or ANYTHING at all?
You're smarter than that, man... You'd be at least as suspicious and incredulous as I am... ...and if you were honest, you'd admit it. (The fact that you likely won't fits in pretty well with another of the reasons I don't trust your zombie e-mail testimonials. I believe you've shown that you'll say or do almost anything, to avoid admitting fault or error.)
Whatever, Donald... I hope you enjoy the show. Now I think I'm gonna go blow a big $1.98 downloading your student, Francesca's, two available songs... She really is kinda talented... If you go to the show, you can tell her how you earned her a new fan, today...
"And that's your standard method of argumentation, to insist that your opponents are radical nihilists and using that to dismiss their arguments."
Dr. Hussein: I took you to school on logical arguments once before. Reppy linked above. Besides, I've shown over and over again your own postmodern nihilism, including in my post today. Nice dodge at the comments, but you didn't even touch on the substantive TAX liabilities issues which YOU originallly raised. Bed form, but typical.
"The only difference between Douglas and a high school teacher is that high school teachers are generally held to higher standards and more rigid curriculum. I doubt Douglas could hack it."
That's a personal attack, not an empirical or logical one, since you have no evidentiary substantiation for your claims. It's malevolent snark in any case.
And Repsac3: You'll never believe a word I say, because your whole gig is revenge against my easy and endless smackdowns to your scheming moral relativist licentiousness.
Francesca's example goes only to say the I treat real people, good people, with love and respect.
You are not good people, however, but I do indulge you ...
And Repsac3: You'll never believe a word I say, because your whole gig is revenge against my easy and endless smackdowns to your scheming moral relativist licentiousness.
Francesca's example goes only to say the I treat real people, good people, with love and respect.
You are not good people, however, but I do indulge you ...
There's no real response there, Donald... Just more of the same silly claims of victory and baseless insults of others...
You're welcome to believe anything you like about yourself, or of others... but until you offer concrete evidence of the things you say, you might just as well be whistlin' Dixie as going around bragging about your "easy and endless smackdowns" of anyone.
That said, keep pouring it on, Donald... We never tire of your particular brand of narcissistic "genius." Please, tell us again how big and strong and smart you are, big boy... You "take down" everyone you debate with the word "nihilist," alone... All you say is so, just because you said it...
You sir, are a legend in your own mind, and I wish you well with that... Come on back when you think up more great things to say about yourself, or more insults to offer others... With you, facts are always optional...
We wouldn't want you any other way...
(No chance you want to try agreeing or disagreeing with my take on accepting quoted e-mails from anonymous sources as proof of anything, or providing any evidence of my having demeaned your teaching, huh? Baseless praise for yourself & insults for others is all you have to offer? Pretty disappointing, Donald, even for you...)
Donald - Took me to school? You mean insulted me incessantly while alternating dictionary definitions to make an insignificant semantical point you were wrong about from the start? Wow, what a schooling!
And no, you've never explained how I'm a postmodern nihilist, beyond your mere assertion of it. Nor have I understood why you keep making the point. You need to address the substance of my arguments, but instead you keep dismissing me with absurdist insults. I'm a "nihilist" because I understand the meaning of "class warfare" and you don't? Please. Rather than refuting anything I wrote, you merely made the same error I was attacking. You needed to explain why Obama was engaging in class warfare, but all you did was assert that it's true because he wants them to pay a little more in taxes and then attack me. I suppose that was a schooling too, huh.
And yeah, I insulted you. No empirical basis for it. Just a straight up insult, Associate Professor Community College. Deal with it. You insult me. I insult you. Sounds like a fair swap to me. Except my insults have bite, while yours wouldn't impress a child. But please, change my name into yet another HILARIOUS insult. I'm sure that's much easier than refuting my points.
I just noticed that the link to "Francesca" in Donald's comment doesn't work for some reason... (I received/read the comment via e-mail originally, and the "Francesca link" did work from there...)
Anyway, I figured I'd try to leave the link myself, and hope I have more luck than the Professor. (And in case I don't, I wrote a post about her music--with a link that works--on my "catch-all" blog, What'd I Say?, linked at the end of the comments...)
On February 27, 2009 12:03 PM, Donald commented: Francesca, a lesbian and rights activist, and student in my class this semester, invited me to her performance tonight. I don't care what her sexual orientation is and I doubt she's a nihilist. She respects me as her professor and I respect her as my student (and she doesn't call me a "fucking coward").
It also just occurred to me that Donald perhaps wasn't paying enough attention to the world outside his egomaniacal head... The gig she had (according to her website calendar, anyway) was on February 26th, not on the 27th...
Francesca Valle changed her website link since I posted it back in March. The new address is:
Francesca Valle - home
Please make a note of it.
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