Now back to our regularly scheduled 5/9/11 post:
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Spoketh the Donalde, in his recent post: Communists and SEIU March in Los Angeles on May Day 2011 - Donald Kent Douglas - American Power:
"RACIST REPSAC = CASPER dropped in for a drive-by comment at Lawyers, Guns and Murder on Saturday, and he again offered up a variant of his pathetic delusion that there are no communists allied with the Democratic Party in contemporary American politics."Reality check: Here's what I actually said:
"Ideas that are not born in one’s own head (or that harmonize and synchronize with the ones that are, at least) scare some folks silly.So where exactly did I say "there are no communists allied with the Democratic Party in contemporary American politics?" Do you see it, or any variant of that thought, or anything that in any way even resembles that thought? If so, I'd like you to explain where you're getting that, in the comment section below. If not, I have to ask; Is there no lie our friend Dr. Douglas will tell in furtherance of his demonization of "the other"... or does he actually really and truly believe that the words I wrote mean what he's alleging they do? It's gotta make you wonder about him, either way...
Pointing and yelling “Anti-Seeeeemite!!!” (or “Cooooomunist!!” or “niiiiihilist!!”) at the top of one’s internet lungs is no substitute for reasoned discourse." - repsac3, May 7, 2011 at 2:33 pm, at the post The CUNY Disgrace : Lawyers, Guns & Money.
(And what the hell is a "drive-by comment," anyway? Where does he come up with this bullshit, and what meme is he trying to sell by employing it? The fact is, I more'n'likely read and comment at Lawyers, Guns, and Money more often than he does... not that Donalde ever lets facts get in the way of whatever sinful crimes and breaches of his crackpot vision of the world he wishes to allege. But damn... He can't even get their name right, which ought to tell ya something...)
"I do not believe RACIST REPSAC = CASPER is a communist. He may be an anti-Semite, in addition to being a racist, and he's definitely a progressive. But that doesn't matter much to the foregoing analysis. The post shows conclusively the infiltration of the Democrat Party by the long-term ideological enemies of the United States. It's fact. That said, facts to not penetrate the world of blind hatred of RACIST REPSAC = CASPER, so this is just for the record, once again. But be warned: Pathetic RACIST REPSAC = CASPER, unfortunately, is potentially even more dangerous than those hoisting banners on the street, for he works in the Alinsky mold of destroying American greatness from within. You gotta watch out for these people. They'd kill you if they get the chance."Donalde's post attempts to "prove" I'm wrong about something I never said, which is that no communists or socialists have ever aligned themselves with Democratic or mainstream liberal causes. The fact is, I never said it. Donalde is flat out, balls-to-the-wall lying. That, or really, really REALLY misunderstanding something I wrote, somewhere... (Look at what he does with the quote above, after all.) I believe it's the former... He does have a Doctorate, after all... But maybe he really just can't comprehend the written word. Anything is possible...
Either way, let's be clear...
Yes, large numbers of Democrats and communists were opposed to the invasion of Iraq, and support worker unions, health care reform, and other political actions and causes more liberal than that of conservatives. Yes, both groups, as well as those of other ideological, religious, racial, gender, and other cohorts, have protested together at the same events, opposing or supporting the same/similar political actions.
So far, so good. Clear enough, I hope.
However...
I dispute whether their appearance at the same protests make their political beliefs or goals identical, or even all that similar. Being in favor of some kind of health care reform (though generally speaking, not the same health care reforms) does not make Communists of Democrats or Democrats of Marxists. There were many reasons to oppose the invasion of Iraq, and I'm pretty sure the pacifist priests were not there for the same reason as the mothers and fathers who lost sons or daughters in the invasion, or those Democrats who believed that military action not authorized by Congress was a breach of the Constitution, or that Iraq was a distraction from finding and waging war on Osama bin Laden, al Queda, and the Taliban who harbored both... or the socialists and communists who believed that large imperialist countries shouldn't seek to overtake small defenseless ones, either. Same protest, lots of different reasons for attending. Donalde would have you believe that they're all Marxists... ...or soon will be.
Given the make-up of the crowds (there's generally like 100 mainstream liberals--Democrats and Greens, mostly--to 1 communist), I question who's infiltrating who. The way I see it, some of those communists are slowly but surely coming in from the ideological cold, and not the other way round. (Others, I'm sure, are true believers, and think they'll help mainstream liberals defeat conservatives, and then rise up against the mainstream liberals... or something like that. It's far more likely they'll just turn 25, get a job, and vote on the Democrat, Green, or Working Families line.) Donalde would have you believe that the presence of even one communist is evidence that Communism will one day overtake the Democratic party... and perhaps, America.
I even question whether the communists at these rallies and protests are "long-term ideological enemies of the US." They're generally high school or college age kids handing out leaflets or holding a banner. We're not talking Stalinist murderers, here. I'm of the opinion that our Constitution and the American ideals for which we stand can handle being questioned by a few ideological college kids, who'll likely grow out of it by their mid-20's... (...and perhaps go so far as to become neocons, like Donalde. Let us not forget who founded the neoconservative movement, and not all that long ago, even, historically-speaking... Talk about yer communist infiltration... And then there's David Horowitz, too... Once a self-confessed, full-blown communist, and now, a hero of our neoconservative friend Donald Kent Douglas. Coincidence? I think not. But it's the Democratic party that's being infiltrated by communism... Suuuure it is...) ((Golly, this bullshit conspiratorial, guilt-by-association fear-mongering is easier'n I thought...)) (((Yes, I'm leaving the sarc marks off on purpose.)))
In fact, if you follow that link back to the Lawyers, Guns, and Money comment that has professor Douglas in such a tizzy, you'll see that THAT was my point in posting it. Rather than running away with blinders on and fingers in our ears, closing us off to any and all ideas and ideals with which we do not agree--or tossing a bullshit label on them and denouncing/renouncing, and moderating them away, as Donalde does, and would have us all do--we can beat them fair and square in the marketplace of ideas, right out in the open, and without demonizing each other as people either, more'n'likely. Our American ideals are not some hothouse flower that will wilt at the first whiff of a communist or socialist belief. Our Democratic Republic is made of far stronger stuff than Donalde seems to believe it is, and a few ideologically confused undergrads questioning--or even vehemently disagreeing with--some aspect of our American political system or makeup isn't going to cause the slightest dent. YMMV, of course...
Hopefully, this post is clear enough for even Teh Donalde to understand... but knowing him as I do, I wouldn't bet on it.
(Oh, and "Booga!! Booga!! Booga!!" Scared of me yet?)
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Previously: DONALD KENT DOUGLAS: Deranged McCarthyist Red-Baiter
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12 comments:
Are you kidding me? What a loser!!
But you're giving me the best material for the subterranean clandestine activity of communists in the Democratic Party. I never said I thought you were, but hey, why try to defend against such a brutal AmPow smackdown? Quit and call a day. But no, you write:
"So where exactly did I say "there are no communists allied with the Democratic Party in contemporary American politics?" Do you see it, or any variant of that thought, or anything that in any way even resembles that thought?"
Well, now that you ask, you wrote:
"As long as Donald offers the exact same "the cooooommies are coming" red-baiting, I will offer the exact same rebuttal of his nonsense. Yes, there are communists. No, they don't have much in the way of numbers or lend their socialist/Marxist/communist ideology to mainstream progressive or Democratic causes." (RACIST REPSAC = CASPER, February 22, 2011.)
Ringo's blog is not the first time that SEIU has been documented as allying with the Communist Party. I've reported this many times. And Open Secrets shows they gave almost $16 million to Democrats in 2010. SEIU is one of the biggest interest group actors in the Democratic Party coalition.
U R PWNED!!
Context, Dr. Douglas, context... (Is this why even on those rare occasions when you quote, you still fail to provide the link?)
DONALD KENT DOUGLAS: Deranged McCarthyist Red-Baiter: And yes... As long as Donald offers the exact same 'the cooooommies are coming' red-baiting, I will offer the exact same rebuttal of his nonsense. Yes, there are communists. No, they don't have much in the way of numbers or lend their socialist/Marxist/communist ideology to mainstream progressive or Democratic causes. If anything, it is them joining our movements, and not the other way around. Folks on the left don't take purity or loyalty oaths; we work together where we can, and part company when the protest is over. As I said before, Donald and his friends are not showing these communist groups getting widespread support for their ideology; at best they're showing them supporting the more mainstream liberal agenda (and more often then that, Donald and his fellow propagandists are showing a few communists or socialists at protests trying to recruit folks to their causes, not getting the time of day, and screeching that '[they] have in [their] hands a list of the names of [mumble mumble] persons who are known to be members of the Communist Party...,' and alleging infiltration at the very highest levels, which, when you look at it (assuming they'll actually show it to you--as often as not, they refuse to show you the proof), amounts to the same old tired bunch'o'nothing.)
In the same post, I also said: I don't know exactly how many communists and socialists have been, are, or will be in attendance at union protests. What I am pretty sure of, however, is that the proportion of actual communists to actual capitalists has been, is, and will continue to be pretty tiny, and that any suggestion to the contrary is rightwing propaganda. So yes... I'm sure Donald may be able to show as many as ten or even twenty communists in videos of these protests, but when compared to the number of people in attendance, those ten or twenty will be a very tiny fraction, and they will in no way represent the whole of political thought. While it's fine to focus on the more "out there" folks, it's dishonest to suggest that they are anything more than the fringe, as Donald appears so willing to do. The same is true whether it's bigoted signs or articles coming out of the Tea Party, or cooooomunists!!! at union or anti-war protests.
and: The fact remains that even if every one of these groups sent five representatives to hand out flyers in Madison, that'd mean there would be 50 commies in Madison... And when we're talking 75,000 people total, that ain't but a fraction of a fraction. Donald's attempt to blow this minor fringe into something serious is laughable. Sure... Debate their crazy ideas... Laugh in their faces if it gets you off. But don't pretend they represent anything near a majority (let alone the whole) of the folks protesting, or of the democrats who're trying to keep this collective bargaining thing from becoming law. That shit just don't fly. The idea that there are "lots of commies" anywhere in the US, or that they represent any kinda threat to capitalism or to anyone, is kinda paranoid.
Besides which, your initial allegation (and thus the question I posted in reply) referred to my saying ""Ideas that are not born in one’s own head (or that harmonize and synchronize with the ones that are, at least) scare some folks silly.
Pointing and yelling “Anti-Seeeeemite!!!” (or “Cooooomunist!!” or “niiiiihilist!!”) at the top of one’s internet lungs is no substitute for reasoned discourse."
So, while I'm perfectly willing to discuss anything/everything I ever posted anywhere (obviously), and still prove you sadly mistaken, you kinda moved those goalposts a tad or two, didn't ya...
So Reppy, you're only a progressive and not a full-blown Communist? But yet:
Pathetic RACIST REPSAC = CASPER, unfortunately, is potentially even more dangerous than those hoisting banners on the street, for he works in the Alinsky mold of destroying American greatness from within. You gotta watch out for these people. They'd kill you if they get the chance."
Please don't kill me. Or am I misreading this and it's just Don calling us pieces of shit again?
Don, good luck getting that whole John Birch thing going again. Sorry you were born 50 years too late Bubba.
Trying to weasel out of what you required by adding "context" makes you look even more stupid!!
You wrote: "So where exactly did I say "there are no communists allied with the Democratic Party in contemporary American politics?" Do you see it, or any variant of that thought, or anything that in any way even resembles that thought?"
As produced in my response, I show the "or any variant of that thought". Added context is irrelevant. You sucked yourself into this with stupid claims. All I said at my post is that Democrat interest groups allied with communists. And May Day is NOT a Democrat Party function, it's a day of international solidarity, historically big in communist countries especially. And now SEIU marches in communist rallies? Thus the stupidity of trying weasel with added context. Communists are not joining the Democrats. Democrat allied groups are joining the communists. Now, you may not be communist, but the average person will see that you are either not in your right mind to make such bird brained arguments, or that frankly you are not engaging debate in good faith. Actually, it's both.
Case closed.
@Kevin:
Hence, Booga!!, Booga!!, Booga!!
But seriously...
I'd kill you if I got the chance.
I'm bad. Michael Jackson bad.
"Come On, You Know It
(Bad Bad-Really, Really Bad)"
And don't you forget it.
You can disrespect and diminish the importance of context all you like, Donalde, but you cannot change the fact that very few single/few line quotes are said in a vacuum, or that context is a fundamental tool in understanding one another.
Pretty much anyone reading your post understood that when you linked to my LGM comment saying:
"Ideas that are not born in one’s own head (or that harmonize and synchronize with the ones that are, at least) scare some folks silly.
Pointing and yelling “Anti-Seeeeemite!!!” (or “Cooooomunist!!” or “niiiiihilist!!”) at the top of one’s internet lungs is no substitute for reasoned discourse."
...and then replied:
"RACIST REPSAC = CASPER dropped in for a drive-by comment at Lawyers, Guns and Murder on Saturday, and he again offered up a variant of his pathetic delusion that there are no communists allied with the Democratic Party in contemporary American politics."
...you were referring to my "drive-by comment" and saying that what I said in that comment was a variant of my belief ("pathetic delusion," according to you) that there are no communists allied with the Democratic Party in contemporary American politics." It's as clear as day, to anyone able to read and understand the English language, that you were making a specific allegation, based on that specific quote.
And thus, when I responded to your nonsense by asking, "...where exactly did I say "there are no communists allied with the Democratic Party in contemporary American politics?", it was similarly obvious that I was referring to my comment and your farcical reply to it, even if I didn't include the phrase "in my LGM comment" (as in "...where exactly, in my LGM comment that Donalde linked and reacted to, did I say...". For most native English-speakers, the "missing" phrase was implied by the context. You were clearly talking about my LGM comment and making an allegation about what you believed it meant. I was clearly questioning the allegation you made about my LGM comment.
In that regard, it's you whose weaseling, by ignoring the context of that portion of your post and shifting the goalposts, pretending that your commentary and my question about it wasn't about that LGM comment, but involved something I said back in February, and dissing the concept of context when I bring it up...
Sadly for you, though, people can read... ...and, except for a few of your online sycophants, and those disembodied voices in your head that're continually writing to tell you how right you always are, you know what those readers are/will be thinking, as regards your goalpost shift.
Sorry, Charlie.
Next: The February post...
"So where exactly did I say "there are no communists allied with the Democratic Party in contemporary American politics?" Do you see it, or any variant of that thought, or anything that in any way even resembles that thought?"
Leaving aside the context involving what that question actually referred to, responding with the snippet from my February "DONALD KENT DOUGLAS: Deranged McCarthyist Red-Baiter" post doesn't hold much water, either, especially when one looks at the whole of the post, and the ideas I was expressing.
Maybe I could've phrased it more clearly, but even in that three sentence snippet, and without the added context of the rest of the post, it's pretty damned evident that I was saying that Communist and Marxist ideology is not influencing how mainstream Democrats or progressives frame, try to legislate, or otherwise lobby and agitate for US policy. Even in that three line snippet, I was saying that a relatively small number of communists and socialists do join progressive protests, but that they're largely fringe players.
The context provided by the additional quotes from the post that I provided here--to say nothing of the whole post, which you clearly read, and that I clearly linked to (because you "neglected" to), so everyone else can read it, as well--reinforces and builds on the argument I made in those three sentences.
I maintain that communists and Marxists and socialists have little effect on mainstream progressive ideology, though I acknowledge that relatively small numbers of them do join protests in support of mainstream progressive causes.
Let's be clear... I don't deny saying that CommuMarxiSocialists have very little effect on the contemporary Democratic party. In that sense, I have said that there are no communists allied with the Democratic party, and I don't deny it (though I do deny in any way expressing it in that LGM comment you initially linked to in your post.)
I also don't deny saying that CommuMarxiSocialists come to mainstream progressive protests. In THAT sense, I guess communists DO ally with the Democratic party, though I maintain that when they do, they are either doing so in support of the mainstream cause (rather than the more populous mainstream folks supporting the communist cause, which is what you seem to believe), or they're piggybacking off the mainstream cause, and preaching their own liturgy to a largely disinterested mainstream public... assuming those mainstream folks are even paying any attention to 'em, in the first place...
I stand by what I said, both here, and back in February (as well as any/all the other times I've discussed this rightwing red-baiting bullshit.) Yep, communists come to progressive rallies. No, most progressive folks (in or out of office) don't pay much attention to what they have to say, unless they're espousing mainstream progressive ideas. There is little to no evidence that Democrats are being influenced by communist ideology or are trying to enact communist political or economic legislation.
Whether they're sincerely in favor of the same kinda union rights, healthcare reforms, immigration policies, and/or peace initiatives as the mainstream progressives they're protesting next to, or they see these reforms as simply a good first step in their quest to take over the US, I cannot say for sure... (I assume, there's some of each, among the commuMarxisocialists who attend protests.) What I know is, their numbers are pretty tiny, and support for Marxist ideology among mainstream progressives is mighty small... Whatever they (or those on the right, who so fear them) THINK is gonna happen, there is not going to be a communist revolution in the US.
So if they want to march in support of mainstream progressive union rights, that's ok by me...
You are correct about the origins of May Day, but I think it's not that big a deal... There are a whole lotta holidays that have dubious, dueling, or at the very least dual, beginnings and histories.
Christmas sits on a pagan holiday, and maintains some of those traditions, to this very day... Same goes with Easter. Mother's Day has origins in the peace movement.
So if May Day celebrations in the US stress the causes and plights of lower and middle class workers, I don't really care if it was/is a socialiMarxicommunist holiday elsewhere. If you wish to argue against communist ideology, I'm with you... But I'm not going to attack the holiday, or accuse union workers of being communists, either, just because they held a march on that day... That's just silly...
Reppy, as scared as I am of your psychokiller (qu'est ce c'est) tendencies I wanted to find out how afraid I should be of this Communist Party. Naturally I went to wikipedia:
By 1957, membership had dwindled to less than 10,000, of whom some 1,500 were FBI informants.[4]
The party attempted to recover with its opposition to the Vietnam War during the U.S. Civil rights movement in the 1960s, but the continued uncritical support of the CPUSA for an increasingly stultified and militaristic Soviet Union increasingly alienated them from the rest of the U.S. left, who saw this supportive position as outdated and even dangerous. At the same time, the party's aging membership demographics and noticeably hollow calls for "peaceful coexistence" failed to speak to a new Left in the United States.
With the rise of Mikhail Gorbachev and his effort to radically alter the Soviet economic and political system from the mid-1980s, the CPUSA finally became estranged from the leadership of the Soviet Union itself; the USSR cut off major funding to the CPUSA in 1989 due to the CP's opposition to glasnost and perestroika.
Lucky they still have George Soros' backing. So I'm seeing that there were 8500 in 1957 and it's dropped from there. I'm very afraid. And I can see why Don is too.
And I'm shocked to hear that Mother's Day has anything to do with the peace movement. Next you'll tell me that Jesus believed in peace and forgiveness.
Donalde, etc. see this, but convince themselves (and want to convince everyone else) they're seeing this and if at all possible, this guy, and all he represents.
That's why it's called fear-mongering... Red-baiting, McCarthyist fear-mongering... (Add "And the SEIU marches with them," (with the spoken or unspoken implication that "...and therefore they are just as Stalinist as...") and you have the title of the post.)
The reality is, they're largely undergrads, experimenting with fringe politics the same way some undergrads experiment with lesbianism, (I know I did) open relationships, or legal/illegal intoxicants, before they graduate, get jobs, and lead the same kinda mainstream lives most of us do, as happily married, beer or two on Friday night, Democrats or Republicans.
Yes, there are always a few who never give up same sex or multi-partner relationships, imbibing things they shouldn't, or radical politics, but one has to be a fool to stare at a single tree and tell folks he's seeing the forest.
Donalde says he doesn't believe that all Democrats have ties to communism (though he cites only Joe Lieberman, in support), but he also says "So, again, Democrats are not necessarily communists. But the Democrat Party base, made up of self-styled "progressives," are neo-Marxist collectivists who advocate statist redistributionism and social justice." The weasel word is "all." There may be a few examples in his blogging other than Lieberman, of "mainstream" or "good" Democrats... But I sure can't think of any... Mostly it's "liberals are evil" and "Democrats hate .... (whatever... Life, America, everything, and everyone)." And Democrats are not all communists; they're just "neo-Marxist collectivists." Right.
The message is clear.
Be afraid.
Be very afraid.
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